captioned by closed captioning services, inc. >> chris: i'm chris wallace. a new jobs report on the first presidential debate. shakeup. the race for the white house. unemployment drops below 8% for the first time in 44 months. both sides say romney budget any wins debate one. with 30 days until the election we will discuss where the campaign stands now. with republican senator kelly ayotte and democratic governor martin o'malley. then a debate guru explains the dos and don'ts when 67 million people are watching. we'll ask brett o'donnell to review what obama and romney did in the first debate and

what they should do better next time. plus this week's face-off between the vice presidential candidates. we will ask our sunday panel to handicap biden versus ryan. and we go "on the trail" all right now on "fox news sunday." and h hello again from fox news in washington. big changes in the presidential race this week. the romney campaign was reenergized by the governor's strong performance in the first debate. but president obama got a big boost with a new jobs report that showed a sharp drop in the unemployment rate. we are going to have our own debate today between democratic governor martin o'malley of maryland and republican senator kelly ayotte of new hampshire. welcome to "fox news sunday." >> thanks for having us. >> great to be with you, chris. >> chris: start with the jobs numbers that came out friday. unemployment rate dropped to the lowest since president obama took office.

the government said 114,000 jobs answered. in a us whohold survey, 873,000 more americans reported having jobs. senator ayotte, isn't the economy getting better? >> i think what is disappointing about the report is that the downtick we saw in unemployment is because of part-time work for economic reasons so people who want full-time jobs taking lower pay. you can't support a family on part-time work. and, of course, we still have the sad fact we have the leaflet labor participation rate since 1981. if the number of people working or participating in the workforce were the same as when the president game into office the unemployment rate would really be 11%. i don't think there is cause to deliberate here. if you told the -- to celebrate here. if you told the american people it would be 7% i don't think anybody would be satisfied or happy with w. that.

>> we want to return to full employment but what we have seen now is 31 months in a row consecutive months in a row of private sector job gains. so, it is far better to be gaining jobs than losing 800,000 a month as we were when george bush was in office. we still have a long way to go but we are moving in the right direction. unemployment now has been driven down to 44 month low. it is lower now than it was in the last month of george bush's presidency, the last full month. and we have also seen home foreclosures driven down to their lowest levels in five years. so they are lower now than when president obama took office. so it is all about middle class security, security in your home. security in your job. and we are making progress. >> chris: but governor o'malley even at 7.8% which is what it is as of friday, no president has been reehe electricked with unemployment this high since fdr back be in 1940. no president has been elected

with growth as low. it is now 1.3% for the second quarter with growth this low since they started measuring gdp growth in 1930. by historical standards, this is still a very weak recovery. >> oh, without a doubt. we still have a long way to go. and speaking of fdr, no president since fdr was left bigger job losses bigger unemployment, bigger deficits, more wars than president obama was by the failed policies of george w. bush which resulted in directly the greatest job losses since fdr. h is hot easy. in is hard -- this is not easy. this is hard work. >> we didn't hear in an hour and 20 minutes of debate anything about the stimulus package because if you look at the policy the trickle down government policy as the governor described it, they represented we would be below 6% unemployment now after spending all that money. the policies that this

president put into place is actually made it worse including the fact that obama care is causing small employers not to hire because of rising healthcare costs. gas prices have doubled. the middle class is being buried under this administration. the vice president said it aptly and it is true. >> chris: let's turn to a couple of issues that came up during the debate. obviously the jobs report came out after the debeat. both sides saying that the other candidate is lying about h his position and let's start with taxes. governor, the president keeps saying that mitt romney is proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. that is not true. >> chris, wait a minute here. the governor, i mean former governor romney is proposing a 20% cut to income taxes including income taxes for the wealthiest of americans and i believe a 30% cut to corporate income taxes including for people like big oil that are socking all of us at the pump reit now. any economist may debate

whether that adds up to $4.9 trillion or add up to 5 trillion dollars but the fact of the matter is in this debate we saw big bird meet the big lie. in fact, when you do those sorts of tax cuts there are costs to those tax cuts. the big etan drivegest driver r deficit -- >> chris: if i may, sir. you are talking about half of the planet it would be like talking about obama's jobs plans and saying the entire aro teachers. it is not obama's plan. similarly you are mischaracterizing the romney plan. saying you're right there is $5 trillion lowering the tax rates but he talks about cutting loopholes. but that is part of the plan. >> but he won't say, chris, which loopholes and which deductions. senator, i doubt seriously you would be if favor of doing away or cutting the home mortgage deduction for middle class

americans. governor romney has not said what the plan is for paying for the $5 trillion in tax cuts just like he won't talk about what his tax returns have been or -- >> with all due reis spect, governor, first of all, governor romney made is clear in the debate and he was actually able to speak directly to the american people that he is not going to lower the burdening on up youer income individuals. we know that upper income individuals rely more heavily on deductions and he will give the relief on the middle class and it will be deficit neutral. one of the best lines of the debate was i have five sons and you can tell the story i'm used to hearing the story five times and having me believing it to be true but we know it is not true what they are saying about his tax plan. let's talk about the president's vision. >> let's talk about where his deductions are. >> chris: let's finish about that and then we will talk about the president's vision, senator. part of the problem is that i have asked romney and ryan repeatedly. i asked ryan on this show last

sunday not -- i don't agree with you it is a $5 trillion tax cut but i said where do you make up the $5 trillion for are lowering tax rates in terms of the deductions and loopholes, how do you make it up? they reduce to tell us. independent experts say even if you took away all of the deductions it is not going to add up to $5 trillion. >> the governor said he understands he has to work with both sides of the aisle. we know right now for example in the house dave camp is working on the issue of lowering, simplifying, and even in the senate they had discussions. he said in the debate i will work with members of both sides of the aisle. looking at a simpson bowles type model. this is not new and we know that it can be done. if you go back to when it was last done of simplifying the tax code. >> simpson boles were more specific about yes, lowering the rates. >> he said he is going to work across the aisle. he is going to listen to both sides of the aisle and make

sure that the three principles stay clear that he is going to give relief to the middle class. that he is going to make sure that we are more competitive, of course, creating jobs because so many small businesses file as individuals that. that higher income individuals will not be paying less and it is not going to impact the deficit. >> chris: you were about to talk about the president's vision. >> the president's vision for the country the best weigh you put forward a vision is a budget and he talked about at the debate his so-called $4 trillion plan to reduce the debt but you what that really s is this budget the budget that he put forth one of the most shocking things about the lack of leadership in washington from this president is that in three years not one member of either party would vote for his vision, his budget. why? it is the worst of both worlds. a massive tax increase that hurts job creators and brings us to $25 trillion in this debt. so that is the vision so we can expect more. one of the things that came out

of the debate is here are we are we are going to have more of the same. more taxing, regulations, dent and economic is stagnation. >> chris: let me ask you about the president's budget, governor. he counts a. trillion dollars that was already part of the debt deal last august. savings that both sides agreed to last august and takes almost a trillion dollars in budget sayings from the wars that they weren't going to fight anyway and we were borrowing money for anyway. you are saying we are going to count as sayings the wars that's we were never going to fight in the first place. >> two different numbers to look at. look at oper operational budgee structural deficit. when the president took office he was left a $10 trillion deficit by his predecessor who squandered the is surplus into

a huge deficit. in n. paying deficit down you should score the fact we are coming out of iraq and afghanistan. the other thing that the president has proposed and that he he understands is we cannot cut our way to prosperity. we need a balanced approach and growing our economy by doing things leak the senator opposed like restructuring the auto industry in order to put people back to work and make manufacturing jobs grow is one of the actions we need to take in order to do that. the fact of the matter is the president because he has the responsibility of office has been specific about what he proposes and mitt romney tells us to trust him. his plan is hiding behind door number three with carroll merrill and his undisclosed tax returns. >> chris: i'm glad you practiced the line. >> the lines are great. his budget tax increase on job creators. budget gimmicks brings us to $25 trillion in debt over ten years. this president has added more are debt than any other

president -- >> not true. >> he said he would cut the deficit in half and we had four years of -- >> it is not true. you know. you are in the united states senate. $10 trillion is what he inherited and you should know that the deficit is now around $15 trillion or $16 trillion. it is not true. you said it and you are repeating governor romney. >> he has added more debt than any other president. >> that is not true, senator. that is not true. that is not true. president bush left him with a $10 trillion deficit. >> bush added 4.8 over -- >> chris: guys. i said i was going to be tougher than jim lehrer and i'm going to be. let's discuss a big issue that never came up in the debate and that is the fiscal cliff coming at the end of the year, sequestration it is called unless the president and congress work out a deal. under what is called the warren act employers and this is not just federal employers, all companies must tell workers 60

days in it advance of mass layoffs but ten days ago the obama administration told companies with federal contracts to ignore the law, don't notify the workers of the coming layoffs as part of the fiscal sequestration and it would pick up the lawsuits resulting. what is wrong with that? >> another example of this administration ignoring or skirting the law to help the president's reelection chances. here is where we are. sequestration is going to be the law in january. we haven't seen the leadership from the president on this. he is worried because the companies know they have to lay people off and this they told congress this. omb says you don't have to comply with the law and the worst part is that taxpayers are on the hook for the litigation costs when the workers don't receive the warnings they are supposed to receive. >> chris: governor, why is that right? >> chris, i have a lot of moms and dads that work at places

like northrup grumman and lockheed martin. i refuse to believe that members are congress will not come together to find a way to place a greater priority on our nation's defense than we do defending gobss of tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires. the senator herself voted against that sequestration move. paul ryan voted for it, i believe. i'm confident after the election we will find a way -- >> chris: if you are so concerned about the middle class why not let the workers know they may be laid off. >> none of the employers want to send out the warren notices. why would you do that -- why would you assume -- >> chris: the law was passed because they didn't want the employers to decide. they wanted to force them to notify the workers. >> to cause that sort of disruption about something that all of us as americans trust and believe that our congress will be able to work out.

>> chris: why would you believe congress is going to work out anything? >> chris, because the devastation to the economy would be so great. i often times disagree he with my counter part bob mcdonald in virginia but happen to share a region of science and security. jobs depend on our abuilt to put a greater priority on the nation's defense and a balanced budget than it does on more tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires. >> chris: senator? >> i just have to make two points. first of all, we know from bob woodward's book this was the president's idea on sequestration. second, do you know that when the president was in the senate he and hillary clinton introduced a bill to allow workers to have greater notice but now he doesn't want to comply with the law because these notices will fall right before the election. here is the most disturbing fact. what sequestration does to our national security and this president has not shown leadership and i'm deeply concerned. he should be leading the effort right now in congress to

resolve this. >> he is. >> chris: less than a minute left. early indications after the debate that romney got some kind of bump in the polls. i will ask you both briefly, 30 seconds each. governor, where does this race stand right now? >> i think we have three more debates coming up one of i have is the vice presidential campaign where paul ryan has been very specific about what he would do in a budget and that is a budget that would be bad for the economy, bad for job growth. it would increase taxes on 18 million people. and so we have a few more rounds to go in this fight. what we saw in the first one was a very energized performance. big bird meets the big lies and now governor romney is going to be challenged for the remaining 30 days to explain how it is that he pays for $5 trillion in tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires without the rest of us suffering the cost of the effects. >> the debate was a reset of the campaign and gave an opportunity for the american people to, first of all, to debunk the myths created by the obama campaign through false

advertising about governor romney. we saw the mitt romney that i know and those who have worked with him and american people got to see that which is someone who has a vision on how to turn our economy around and a path forward to address the debt. unlike this president, we heard more of the same. america can't afford more of the same. >> chris: senator are and governor, thank you both for coming in. who was that person behind door number three? >> carol merrill. you don't remember that, let's make a deal. >> chris: she was the one behind door number three. >> i believe so. and duff romney hiding the plans. the tax return. >> chris: i mostly rep that people dressed up like lobsters. enough. thank you. up next, a debate guru tells us what romney and obama did right and wrong this week and how they need to rethink their strategies. úwñoa [ male announcer ] citibank's app for ipad

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mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. >> chris: he has been called the nation's best political debate coach. he prepped george w. bush in 2004. john mccain in 2008 and michele bachmann and then mitt romney in this primary campaign. we asked brett o'donnell to join us today to talk about this week's debate and how both candidates need to recalibrate for the next one. the big i think it is fare to coming out of this debate is what happened to president obama. why did he do so poorly. obviously you were in the room but best guess what do you think his debate team failed to do to prepare him for wednesday night? >> three areas where you have to prepare a candidate. the first s they have to know the issues and policy on both sides. i think president obama s fine in that area. but the last two areas i think his team may have failed.

the second is you have to have a strategy going into the debate to execute. and the final thing is you have to be mentally prepared. i don't think the president was really mentally prepared to take on governor romney and i certainly think that he was in shock when governor romney went on offense and stayed on offense throughout the debate and put the president on his heels and the president's worst moments are when is on defense and that is where he spent most of the night. >> chris: all right. we asked you to pick some moments where you thought the candidates did something particularly good or particularly bad and we are going to start with your good moment for romney. here it is. >> my plan has five basic parts. one, get us energy independent. north american energy independent. that creates about 4 million jobs. >> chris: and then he went on to list the other of his five point plan. what s your point? get out your basic program right at the start? >> you know, if the very

beginning governor romney cast a expectations for the debate. folks accused him of not being specific. the president had been on him about specifics and from the very beginning governor romney offered a vision of two different paths. the path the president has us on and the path that he would put us on and talked about it specifically and gave us five things that his plan would do and in a debate that is a good amount of detail for the audience to catch on it. he really set in motion a frame for the debate which allowed him to really cast vision in the debate which the president did not do. >> chris: but for all of your criticism you say the president did have some good moments, too. here is your pick for that. >> for 18 months he has been running on this tax plan and now five weeks before the election he is saying that his big bold idea is never mind. >> chris: what is so strong about that? >> well, you know, it takes the big issue of taxes that they

had gone back and forth about for several minutes in the first opening block be and capsulized the president's entire argument in one season tense and that creates a moment that the press can catch on to and a sound bite that the press can replay and the audience can grab on to. it was really the president's best line of the night. beyond that he was very much on defense the entire night. >> chris: now, you say that both candidates both candidates also stumbled during the debate and this one i have to say i didn't need your help on this is a mistake that obama made repeatedly during the debate. let's watch. >> you put $90 billion into green jobs. and i -- look i'm all in favor of $90 billion. that would have hired 2 million teachers. >> and we saw that throughout the debate. mr. obama kept looking down while romney was making points or are criticizing him or attacking him. brett, i got to think that is

debate 101 that you would tell your candidate always assume you are on camera and that they are looking at you even if the other guy is speaking. >> you know, it is funny, though, chris, the debate history, presidential debate history is replete with examples of where candidates don't pay attention to how they look and say things and are only worried about what they say. audiences tell us they take as much as 65% of the meaning from how candidates or how people say things. you have the famous george bush looking at his watch or al gore sighing in the debate. and this time around we have the president who seems to be disinterested, who seems to be irritated and not focused on the debate. >> chris: what do you tell a candidate to do when the other guy is speaking or even attacking? >> well, you know, certainly you can take notes, you can look out at the audience but every now and then you need to look at your opponent. it is kind of odd if a person

is talking directly to you like governor romney was during most of the debate and you don't look at them. it is almost -- it is -- could be considered rude or disinterested, irritated. t certainly sent the wrong message and at times you notice the president is even looking to his left when his podium is candid to the right and so it sends the message i would like to get out of here as fast as possible. >> chris: he is certainly sent that message. you say that romney for all of his good points, stumbled, too, during the debate. you say one case is when was talking about reforming social security and medicare, entitlements. let's take a look. >> if you are around 60 or older you don't need to listen any further but for younger people we need to talk about what changes are going to be occurring. >> chris: i was surprised by this. what did he do wrong there? >> i don't necessarily think -- you know, it is degrees of weakness and i think governor romney had a very strong night. section on sec hundred on

entitlements he didn't necessarily look the best and seemed to be the moment where he wasn't as sure of himself on the arguments as he was on the rest of the debate. he was very strong on tax policy and economic policy and used that $90 billion figure to a great advantage twice. useused it against the presidet on energy policy and used it against them on education policy. but during the section on he entitlements he didn't necessarily seem to be at his strongest but still certainly much stronger than the president. >> chris: i want to ask you about a moment that you didn't bring up that has got and lot of attention. let's take a look at this one. >> i'm sorry, jim, i'm going to stop the subsidy to pbs and other things. i love big bird and i actually like you, too. i'm not going to keep on spending money on things to borrow money from china to pay for are it. >> was that smart as a way to show that he is serious about

cutting spend or is it always a mistake to take on big bird? >> well, big bird is pretty popular but maybe the president would say big bird didn't build his own nest, i don't know. but i think that it is -- it probably maybe not going after big bird but is certainly pbs and public broadcasting is popular in terms of taking them on in the spending side. i don't think he was going down the wrong path. maybe not so much with big bird. >> chris: a couple of minutes left. i want to look forward. what do you expect from this week's vice presidential debate between joe biden and paul ryan? >> well, i am sure that vice president biden got a phone call from the white house and said you know look, we didn't go after governor romney as much and so you have got to turn up the heat. because the debates are about controlling the ground. whoever is viewed as the one who controls the debate, who is

on the offense, i don't necessarily just mean attacking your opponent. governor romney didn't attack the president the entire night. governor romney stayed on his message whoever stays on message will be viewed as the victor. i'm sure that vice president biden has been coached to get back on message and go after paul ryan. how much he will do that we'll see. i'm sure that congressman ryan has been preparing on the policy side and preparing mentally for this. this is the first time he will have been on this stage. i think both men will be very prepared. >> and. >> chris: briefly looking ahead to the next presidential debate on october 16 nine days from now you have to know that obama will be much more aggressive to show that was just a bad night. if you are his coach briefly what do you tell obama to do and if you of romney's coach how do you tell him to prepare for a much more aggressive president?

>> if you are the president, you have got to get on offense. you have to use the things that have been successful to this point for them in the campaign. it was shocking that he didn't go into the 47% remark or bain capital. or some of the other things that he has been using which seemed to have given him a per septemberivperceptive advantagg into the debate. more importantly he has to offer a vision. the president had no vision for are the future in terms of what he would do and where he would take the country. and governor romney's vision was very clear. if you are governor romney you have to stay on message and keep pressing on offense. that worked for him in the debate but he has to be ready for a different president obama. the risk s like al gore back in 2000 if the president changes his persona too much, folks will report, well, a different president showed up and that hurt al gore in the 2000 debates. the president really has a problem on his hands in terms of how he approaches the next

debate. >> chris: we have to leave it there. thank you you so much for coming in and sharing some of the tricks of your trade and we will see thursday if biden and ryan were listening. >> thanks. good to be with you. next, with 30 daysork 30 days this will the election we will ask if the unemployment rate drop or the debate will have a bigger impact on the election. ? by the armful? by the barrelful? the carful? how about...by the bowlful? campbell's soups give you nutrition, energy, and can help you keep a healthy weight. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.

hey. hey eddie. i brought your stuff. you don't have to do this. yes i do. i want you to keep this. it'd be weird. take care. you too. [ sighs ] so how did it go? he's upset. [ male announcer ] spend less time at gas stations with best in class fuel economy. it's our most innovative altima ever. ♪ opponent is doing a lot of little tap dance at the debate the other night. trying to wiggle out of stuff he has been saying for a year. >> you heard his answers and i think as a result of those answers the american people recognize that he and i stand for something very different. >> chris: governor romney and president obama still arguing late this week about who won

their first debate and it is time now for the sunday group. brit hume fox news senior political analyst. mara liasson of national public radio. kimberly is strossel from the "wall street journal" and kirsten powers from the daily beast website. let's jump into the biggest news which s the jobs rate which showed a sharp drop. brit, how big a boost for the president. how big a setback for romney? >> improves the talking point that the president has. it is now below 8%. 8% has been thrown in his face now for some time. >> i don't think, however, people make up their are minds on the economy based on the unemployment number. i think they make up their minds about the economy based on what they see around them and feel in their own life and what the people they know are are related to are telling them in their experience in the job market and so on. given the fact that left intact in the job report is is the

overall employment and underemployment rate up to 14.7% and unchanged a very bad number indeed. i think that reflects what people see around them and i don't think this helps the president very much. >> chris: mara, 7.8%. do you think that changes people's perception that well, maybe the economy is getting better. in. >> i think it can. but i agree with brit. t has to do with how people are feeling about their own situation. we have seen consumer confidence getting better. i would say one of the reasons that the president had been doing a little better recently until the debate was because not only did he have a good convention and the republicans didn't have a great one but also because people are paying down their debt. more people are feeling confident about the future. consumer spending is going up. there has been a little bit of uptick in the way people feel about the economy a little more optimistic. whether one month of jobs data is going to make a huge difference, i doubt it.

>> chris: also another piece of knees and that was the debate. which do you think has more resonance with voters the new jobs number and what they watched on wednesday night? >> 70 million people watched the debate. people said that met mitt romny definitively won this. he did. he went out and talked about broad economic. he said here are the different options it when it comes to raising taxes or not raising taxes and laid out his own policies and connected them to the voters that he was trying to talk to and that is why he got the win on tuesday. >> chris: kirsten? >> between the two the debate is the most important. the job numbers to a certain extent were baked in already and the drop while significant isn't -- it is not like a drops to 5% or something. we still have a high unemployment number. it has given the president something positive to stay about the economy. he already worked it into the stump speech that we are now at

the lowest point since he game into office. that s definitely a powerful thing. overcoming what happened in the debate is a much bigger problem for him. >> chris: there is not much disagreement in a town where everybody disagrees about everything there is not much disagreement that romney won the debate. take a look at the latest cover of the new yorker which is just out and shows romney debating an empty chair much as clint eastwood did at the republican convention but the obama camp is in overdrive trying to undercut romney's victory basically saying he lie with his positions is. how s that working? >> i don't think that is working very well. what i would say about this is this idea that romney won the debate because obama basically didn't show up, i don't buy that. the barack obama i heard on the debate stage was the barack obama i have been listening to now for four years. he sounded very much like himself. i don't think he was terribly bad. i think he has a very weak case

and i think that the circumstances in the country present the challenging candidate with all kinds of opportunities. mitt romney was on his game and he took advantage of those opportunities. the president is saddled with weak circumstances and therefore a weak case. and it is not surprising to me that he didn't argue it very well and the other thing is despite his reputation as being this world class orator, maybe he is with a set piece speech. there was not a lot of evidence in the past that he was ever a great debater. i don't think this thing was as big a shock as the president's supporters on the left feel. i think they all thought he was 10 feet tall. he is not 10 feet tall. never has been. >> chris: about the specific issue of the truth squadding, fact checking of romney, and they continue to press. i don't think it is a very accurate thing, the $5 trillion tax cut and talk about well in fact his plan would cut pell grants and aid to students. is that a way to go at it to say well, he is misrepresenting who he is? >> i think that that is pretty

much all that they have coming out of this debate. i mean romney did something pretty extraordinary. basically liberated hillself from the modern party. he felt bound to it during the primaries and in the convention. presented himself as a moderate appealing businessman. not going to raise taxes on the middle class. doesn't have a $5 trillion tax cut and i think that was a huge, huge accomplishment. he didn't look like he was disconnected from ordinary people. now, i think the difficulty for the president i think it is a reasonable thing to try to do but the next debate is in a town hall format this will be he hard to attack somebody in front of a bunch of people asking questions. >> chris: i want to pick up on what mara mentioned, your "wall street journal" had a big article about it this weekend, the idea that obama is pivoting from the right to the season per on issues like tax cuts and immigration and bipartisanship. do you see him softening some of this is conservative positions.

>> this has been driven by the presidency. i don't think if you asked a single conservative among the 70 million watching him and absolutely very excited about his performance. what he has done is explain them better. >> chris: but the tax cut is not quite a tax cut any more and on immigration well, he is not going to end the waivers for young people. >> i think a lot of this, though, is the press pivoting off of what barack obama has described his plans as being. mitt romney has been fairly consistent about what he plans to do. he just went out there and said itmore are clearly to everyone on tuesday night. and this actually does put the obama team in a very difficult position because this was the heart of their strategy was to paint him as this sort of outrageous guy with failed ideas. that has not worked now and so what do they do? can't do a big change themselves and go out and propose their are own big ideas. the other thing is now they will get down and dirty and claim he is a big liar and flip

flopper and can't be trusted. that is why he did not do that in the big debate, president obama, he himself a big part of the reelection is on looking likeable. and now having to go out in the second debate and really take the gloves off. >> chris: briefly, kirsten. all romney has to do is change the way people perceive him which is easier to do, than change your record, which is obama's problem. >> this person who is a flip flopper. it was easy for him to show up and not be that person. i think that yes, obama has a difficult record but i actually have to disagree with little bit with brit in the sense that i think obama did do spec spectacularly bad. i don't think i'm someone who sees him as being 10 feet i felt like he was not engaged and didn't want to be there.

couldn't do the basic thresh hold of i'm at a debate and i just act like i care. >> chris: a lot he left on the table. >> they had a bad strategy and went in to play it safe sand he played it too a safe. their attitude was we don't benefit from a fight with romney. >> chris: well, they didn't have a fight with romney. panel, we have to take a break here. we we come back, round two, biden ryan. stay tuned. the capital one cash rewards card gives you a 50% annual bonus. and everyone likes 50% more [ russian accent ] rubles. eh, eheh, eh, eh. [ brooklyn accent ] 50% more simoleons. [ western accent ] 50% more sawbucks. ♪ [ maine accent ] 50% more clams. it's a lobster, either way. [ male annncer ] the capital one cash rewards card. with a 50% annual cash bonus, it's the card for people who like more cash. [ italian accent ] 50% more dough! what's in your wallet?

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the thing about congressman ryan is he has been straightforward up to now about everything he has -- all the significant changes he wants to make. >> he is fast on the cuff. he is a witty guy. he knows who he is. and he has been doing this for

40 years so you are not going to rattle joe biden. >> chris: vice president biden and congressman paul ryan trying to set tax increases ahead of their debate on thursday. i don't know how important it is terms who is actually going to win. i have to say i'm really looking forward to the ryan-biden debate. on one hand an old school liberal and a young gun conservative. i think it will be a real culture clash. kim, what do you expect? >> i think what you just said, what joe biden had going for him when barack obama went into the debate expectations were huge he was going to mop the floor with romney. joe biden does not have a high expectations problem. people think of him as the gaffe guy. i think that underestimates joe biden. what paul ryan said is true he he has been doing this for 40 years and he will be on message.

he has something else, is too. barack obama felt con strained to go after mitt romney with some of the lines, 47%, bain capital. he was going to look presidential. joe biden is going to throw everything and the kitchen sink at paul ryan and paul ryan's job has to be to not only meet that and turn it but also continue to do the sort of positive message that romney did in his debate. >> chris: there is the perception that bide season a loose cannon and a gaffe machine and i asked paul ryan about this last week and he said not in the highly visible highly structured events. he is disciplined and has been studying all of his debates. what do you expect from the vice president? >> i think that is true and if you you remember a lot of his gaffes, a, usually aren't covered by the media and b, are often sort of humorous but not damaging in the sense that he is changing policy or putting something out there that is going to box the president in with the one exception of gay marriage. that would be' gaffe that actually caused problems for

the president. i expect him to do a good job. what i expect him mostly to do is to try to wrap paul ryan's plans around mitt romney's neck. he has said i have been spending a lot of time studying paul ryan's positions. he wants to basically -- >> chris: and there are differences between what paul ryan proprosed and what romney is proposing now. >> he will focus on the differences and say this this is what your plans are and why are they different from romney. >> chris: or say hey that is what you really believe and what you will do. >> exactly. >> chris: biden was in full roar this week, brit when it came to raising taxes. take a look at what he has to say. >> we are going to ask the wealthy to pay more. my heart breaks. come on, man. you know the phrase they always use? obama and biden want to raise taxes by $8 trillion.

guess what? yes, we do in one regard. we want to let that trillion dollars tax cut expire so the middle class doesn't have to bear the burden of all of of that money going to the super wealthy. >> chris: does that help or hurt the president? >> i don't know. look, i think there is an interesting strategic decision that has to be made by team obama for the debate. if biden spends his time attacking paul ryan's plan, ryan will make it clear that is not the plan they are running on and if he spends a lot of his time attacking paul ryan and has a great night doing that, it won't make any difference. what i think biden has to consider doing s using his time to it attack mitt romney to take him down a peg after his performance in the first debate. that is the most urgent need it seems to me the obama campaign has s to undo some of what mitt romney achieved. >> chris: and wherey would you suggest that he go after

romney? >> who knows. i'm not sure romney is as vulnerable as the obama team think. is presumably hit him on the 47%. hit him on flip flops and so on. take all of these things that the obama camp has now noted were, quote, lies, and try to make some hay out of them. then ryan would have to spend time defending and so on. i don't think it the debate will make all that much difference. interesting to see which way biden goes. whether he goes after ryan or romney. >> vice presidential debates usually don't matter. there is a further difficulty now for biden. up until now there hasn't been any romneyism. didn't have his own agenda and didn't present a vision. he changed that because he looked commanding and like he was effective and really righted his campaign in the debate. it will be harder to paint him as kind of a hand maiden of the house republican quote extreme

agenda that paul ryan epitomizes. it will be crease tore ryan to say i'm running on -- it will be easy for ryan to say hey, i'm running on the romney ticket. >> chris: let me bring you in on this question of ryan and his vulnerability. he has taken some positions on budget cuts that romney moved away from. ryan had the $716 billion cut in medicare which romney has disavowed. how vulnerable is ryan and you know and the argument which i suspect will be made, hey, in you want to know what romney is really going to be look look at what paul ryan is proposing. >> he says look it is not my plan, i'm running with romney. one of the things that paul ryan has gotten remarkably well and gotten better at since he he was picked is internalizing romney's plans and explaining them just as well as he used to explain his positions, the way he ran. the other problem, too, that the barack obama campaign has in doing this is they have to make a decision.

are this he going to paint romney and ryan as extremists or paint them as flip floppers because they are not the same thing and if he is going to go after ryan and say you are an extremist and then go after ryan and say you don't know what you think. those things are the mutually exclusive. >> chris: the bottom line is does this really matter. as entertaining as it may be, do people vote based on what the vice presidential candidates say. we all afree that the most one sided debate maybe ever was lloyd benson against dan quayle. brit hume you were on the panel that night and that was the one and we are seeing the moment right here where benson says to dan quayle you are no jack kennedy and you can hear the roar from the crowd. does all this matter? >> we the debate was over i asked the question of quayle if

something happened to the president god forbid what would you do? >> benson had a chance to think about it while quayle was fumbling to give him another crack at it to be fair and he fumbled it again and tom brokaw gave it another time. that left the opening for jack benson to say you are no jack kennedy. i thought at the time this will turn this into a route and be the sound bite played forever and this is a bad night tore the gop ticket. i went down stairs into the press room and saw you david broader of the washington post a long time pretty fair minded reporter and i said what do you think about this. he said there may be some marginal effect but i don't think it will make much difference. he was absolutely right. in the end it didn't make any noticeable difference in the outcome of the election. >> chris: 15 seconds kirsten, does it matter?

>> matters very little unless something super dramatic in terms of let's say paul ryan announced some new policy or something. in that way it would matter. otherwise i don't think it makes -- >> chris: thank you panel. see you you next week. check out panel plus where the group picks up with the discussion on our website. fox news sunday .com. we will post the video before noon eastern time. follow us on twitter @ foxnewssunday. up next, we go on the trail.

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>>. >> chris: it was the biggest week on the campaign with the first presidential debate and surprising new jobs numbers. you could feel the new intensity on the trail. >> president obama and governor romney. [ applause ] >> go to congress, fight for it, that is what we have done. >> we have made adjustments to it. >> but you have been president for four years. you said you would cut the deficit in half and we still have trillion dollar deficits. >> you can see it in the body language, he was so uncomfortable talking about it. >> mitt romney said he would do anything to become president. >> listen to governor romney last night, they discovered the middle-class. [ laughter ] >> my god, there it is. >> it's no coincidence.

>> we began with news that the u.s. unemployment rate has dropped to the lowest level in four years. >> this morning we found out that the unemployment rate has fallen to the lowest level since i took office. >> if the shame share were participating in the work force on the day that president was elected our unemployment rate would be around 11%. >> today's news is not to try to talk down the economy to score a few politics points. >> it's time to elect someone who has a president who has a plan and i will create 12 million jobs. >> that is serious. >> chris: there will be a lot more fireworks in the final 30 days of the campaign. now, a program note. be sure to tune into this fox station and fox news channel for full coverage of this week's